SON: Let us start with Matthew 28:16-20
You walked right into it
So if they are to make disciples of all nations
And “baptize” them
And ALL BELIEVERS are to be “baptized”
[your words not mine]
Then . . .
What does that mean an about a priesthood?
Excuse me, all “disciples”
Are to be baptized
Do you just pick and choose or actually read these passages?
QUOTE IN SUPPORT OF A FATHER’S DEFENSE:
5 For though I be absent in body, yet in spirit I am with you; rejoicing, and beholding your order, and the steadfastness of your faith which is in Christ [Colossians 2:5]
6 As therefore you have received Jesus Christ the Lord, walk ye in him; 7 Rooted and built up in him, and confirmed in the faith, as also you have learned, abounding in him in thanksgiving. 8 Beware lest any man cheat you by philosophy, and vain deceit; according to the tradition of men, according to the elements of the world, and not according to Christ: 9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead corporeally; 10 And you are filled in him, who is the head of all principality and power:
11 In whom also you are circumcised with circumcision not made by hand, in despoiling of the body of the flesh, but in the circumcision of Christ: 12 Buried with him in baptism, in whom also you are risen again by the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him up from the dead. 13 And you, when you were dead in your sins, and the uncircumcision of your flesh; he hath quickened together with him, forgiving you all offences: 14 Blotting out the handwriting of the decree that was against us, which was contrary to us. And he hath taken the same out of the way, fastening it to the cross: 15 And despoiling the principalities and powers, he hath exposed them confidently in open shew, triumphing over them in himself.
THE FATHER’S DEFENSE:
THIS, IN MY MIND, CONCERNS BAPTISM FIRST AND FORMOST, WHICH YOU ALSO TAKE ISSUE AS TO IT BEING INAPPROPRIATE TO BAPTIZE INFANTS. WE ARE CIRCUMSISED IN CHRIST BUT CHRIST WAS CIRCUMSISED WHEN HE WAS 8 DAYS OLD. CHRISTIANS ARE NOT UNDER THE OLD LAW BUT IF IN THE OLD LAW IT, INSTITUTED BY GOD, WAS REQUIRED FOR BABIES TO BE BROUGHT INTO THE ASSEMBALY OF THE CHOOSEN PEOPLE THROUGH CIRCUMCISION AS JESUS WAS AT 8 DAYS WHY WOULD NOT CHRISTIANS BE BROUGHT IN THAT EARLY? GENESIS 17 SAYS THAT IS WHAT IS REQUIRED TO BE A JEW AND COME UNDER THE COVANANT. COMING UNDER THE COVENANT WAS LITERALLY BECOMING PART OF THE JEWISH RELIGION! BUT ABOVE IT IS COVERED BY JESUS CHRIST IN THAT ONE IS BAPTIZED. SO TO GET AT LEAST AS MUCH COVERAGE AS JEWS, BEING A CHRISTIAN, IS IT NOT LOGICAL THAT A CHILD BE BAPTISED WITHIN 8 DAYS OF BIRTH, IF NOT EARLIER, SINCE UNLIKE CIRCUMCISION NO TRAMA OCCURS? ALSO UNLIKE JEWS FEMALE CHRISTIANS LIKE SUSAN NEED TO BE BAPTIZED ALSO (GAL 3:28-29).
Below is Genesis 17 so that you can see the requirement is in the bible to occur within 8 days and even Abraham a more clear ordinance (AS TO TIME AND REQUIREMENTS) than the New Testament but, in my mind, because of Christ just as necessary to be marked as part of the Christian, a follower and part of the body of Christ. Thought, unlike jews, because of this clear marking Jewish males were clearly marked and if targeted for genocide could easily be identified among a normal gentile population, I think our Lord made the mark invisible in this world, but in any case, any human being is incapable of receiving sanctifying grace, that is being an heir of heaven without baptism. One should not want their child damned for all eternity because they were not baptized. Baptism, unlike what protestants believe leaves a mark which God can identify as to who his people are and are therefore heir to the Beatific Vision (Heaven) no matter what age. Without baptism you, do not have sanctifying grace – that original life of God, and are therefore dead through original sin until baptized. For Catholics and those following my logic, this means before one is baptize (while one is in original sin) or if one has commited and unforgiven mortal sin (1 John 5:17) the sacraments, except for confession/penance are useless (or at least in the case of marriage unable to grant the blessings for that state of life) because you can’t feed the soul if its dead so the Eucharist, the food of heaven for the soul, has no nourshing effect since you can’t feed a corpse. But as implied earlier God gives us a chance for redemption (that is, forgivness of mortal sins committed after baptism) and actual help through the power and training of a priest in the sacrament of confession. A priest is there not only to forgive the sin but help us, through advise learned in training ane through experience, to avoid that sin as well as others in the future.
The Covenant of circumcision.
1 And after he began to be ninety and nine years old, the Lord appeared to him: and said unto him: I am the Almighty God: walk before me, and be perfect. 2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee: and I will multiply thee exceedingly. 3 Abram fell flat on his face. 4 And God said to him: I AM, and my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations. 5 Neither shall thy name be called any more Abram: but thou shalt be called Abraham: because I have made thee a father of many nations.
[5] “Abram”: in the Hebrew, signifies a high father: but Abraham, the father of the multitude; Sarai signifies my Lady, but Sara absolutely Lady.
6 And I will make thee increase, exceedingly, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee. 7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee, and between thy seed after thee in their generations, by a perpetual covenant: to be a God to thee, and to thy seed after thee. 8 And I will give to thee, and to thy seed, the land of thy sojournment, all the land of Chanaan for a perpetual possession, and I will be their God. 9 Again God said to Abraham: And thou therefore shalt keep my covenant, and thy seed after thee in their generations. 10 This is my covenant which you shall observe, between me and you, and thy seed after thee: All the male kind of you shall be circumcised:
Please state whenever you send a quote where it was from. Your quote from 2 kings (2 Samuel) Chapter 12, verses 21-25.
SON: Read the entire passage to understand but this is clear proof. David knows he can’t get his child back but he will reunited with him in heaven.
FATHER’S DEFENSE:
That they will meet again in the afterlife is stated but not necessarily in heaven but possibly in the place of pre-salvation before Christ died on the cross. I do not think this is a precept of faith and that is the reason for the Catholic concept of limbo, which, unlike purgatory, there is no evidence of it anywhere, that I know of, in the Bible, for the time after Christ. This concept is born of the fact that Catholics know God is all just and though from the gospel, and since uncircumcised, the child is not an heir of heaven. Now all unborn children and children below the age of reason may go to heaven by some technicality we do not easily find in the gospel, but, is it fair that because of Adam and Eve sinned we are the “children of wrath?” (i.e. without baptism which brings us under the sacrifice made by Jesus Christ we are not heirs of heaven). We get the help of graces from baptism (like the Jewish Circumcision) until we are confirmed (where we officially accept the faith and get additional help from the Holy Ghost to propagate the faith and mature it in our person and seems to have its equivalence in the Jewish Bar Mitzvah for males and Bat Mitzvah for females), and that was the reason I asked you repeatedly if you were sure you wanted to be confirmed at the time of your confirmation, at least as I remembered. My deal was to baptize you instead of leaving you part of the “children of wrath.” (Ephesians 2:3) Maybe extra help from your guardian angel, since I’m not sure if only baptized Christians get one (Matthew 18:10). I say Christian because the one thing we a both agree on, that is Christians of any stripe and Catholics, is that any human can baptize another human if that other human desires it, after the age of reason, and you are correct in your assumption that at this point if a person does not desire it, it does not occur. God unfortunately gave Adam and Eve the choice to live in happiness forever with no knowledge of evil or to eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and know evil and therefore have complete free will. If one does not know evil one does not really have free will. And if one knowingly and willingly refuse God’s love then it does not come to him or her.
Next Matthew 18:10-14
Christ teaches humility, to beware of scandal, and to flee the occasions of sin: to denounce to the church incorrigible sinners, and to look upon such as refuse to hear the church as heathens. He promises to his disciples the power of binding and loosing: and that he will be in the midst of their assemblies. No forgiveness for them that will not forgive.
1 At that hour the disciples came to Jesus, saying: Who thinkest thou is the greater in the kingdom of heaven? 2 And Jesus calling unto him a little child, set him in the midst of them, 3 And said: Amen I say to you, unless you be converted, and become as little children, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. 4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, he is the greater in the kingdom of heaven. 5 And he that shall receive one such little child in my name, receiveth me.
6 But he that shall scandalize one of these little ones that believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone should be hanged about his neck, and that he should be drowned in the depth of the sea. 7 Woe to the world because of scandals. For it must needs be that scandals come: but nevertheless woe to that man by whom the scandal cometh. 8 And if thy hand, or thy foot scandalize thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee. It is better for thee to go into life maimed or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into everlasting fire. 9 And if thy eye scandalize thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee. It is better for thee having one eye to enter into life, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire. 10 See that you despise not one of these little ones: for I say to you, that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father who is in heaven.
[6] “Shall scandalize”: That is, shall put a stumblingblock in their way, and cause them to fall into sin.
[7] “It must needs be”: Viz., considering the wickedness and corruption of the world.
[8] “Scandalize thee”: That is, cause thee to offend.
11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost. 12 What think you? If a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them should go astray: doth he not leave the ninety-nine in the mountains, and go to seek that which is gone astray? 13 And if it so be that he find it: Amen I say to you, he rejoiceth more for that, than for the ninety-nine that went not astray. 14 Even so it is not the will of your Father, who is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish. 15 But if thy brother shall offend against thee, go, and rebuke him between thee and him alone. If he shall hear thee, thou shalt gain thy brother.
16 And if he will not hear thee, take with thee one or two more: that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may stand. 17 And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican. 18 Amen I say to you, whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven. 19 Again I say to you, that if two of you shall consent upon earth, concerning any thing whatsoever they shall ask, it shall be done to them by my Father who is in heaven. 20 For where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
[20] “There am I in the midst of them”: This is understood of such assemblies only as are gathered in the name and authority of Christ; and in unity of the church of Christ. St. Cyprian, De Unitate Ecclesiae.
21 Then came Peter unto him and said: Lord, how often shall my brother offend against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? 22 Jesus saith to him: I say not to thee, till seven times; but till seventy times seven times.
SON:
what do you suppose Jesus is talking about here?
That is why I’m saying catholic traditions are blinding you to creatin a real relationship with Jesus.
“Well that’s what they did for hundreds of years”
And I e said “and there were bad popes” [not sure about the first I e auto correct meaning]
None of these these are relevant if we are to believe the New Testament
Because a lot of things occurred quite frequently an Jesus corrected jews, gentiles, Samaritans, Pharisees, saduccees.
But again, further digging the fact that baptism by birth is flawed thinking and you won’t accept it
It’s literally like talking to a wall with you belief. EXACTLY like the PHARISEES.
And Jesus himself pointed out their flaws.
Like I’ve said time and time again.
I don’t think I even consider myself Protestant
I’m some amalgamation of Christian.
And I say this because I’m telling you abut things in the Catholic doctrine that literally make no sense.
Maybe I will look in the extra catholic books to see if I see something pops out regarding baptism but so far no dice.
That’s why I actually use non denom Christian now
I understand now
And they rely on someone else to
As I’ve said though the problem I see with the Catholic Church is they don’t actually try to understand the word themselves
For the vast majority
Not saying all
But it’s what’s ingrained in a Catholic
Apparently they’re too stupid to do their own cross referencing based on what yiuve always argued
Which is obviously isn’t true
But that is the feeling I’ve always go
I bring up baptism because it’s easy to show you how flawed the Catholic line of thinking is on that subject
I’m still working through the others. Some I may agree with
Others I might not
But at the same time it’s why I think that your assertion that you can’t be any denom of Christian and pull out truly what Jesus taught and under stand how you go to heaven as ANY Christian denomination is absurd
If you actually study to understand the divine revelation in your hand
FATHER’S DEFENSE:
Acts of the Apostles Chapter 5 and chapter 6 verses 1-7.
1 But a certain man named Ananias, with Saphira his wife, sold a piece of land, 2 And by fraud kept back part of the price of the land, his wife being privy thereunto: and bringing a certain part of it, laid it at the feet of the apostles. 3 But Peter said: Ananias, why hath Satan tempted thy heart, that thou shouldst lie to the Holy Ghost, and by fraud keep part of the price of the land? 4 Whilst it remained, did it not remain to thee? and after it was sold, was it not in thy power? Why hast thou conceived this thing in thy heart? Thou hast not lied to men, but to God. 5 And Ananias hearing these words, fell down, and gave up the ghost. And there came great fear upon all that heard it.
6 And the young men rising up, removed him, and carrying him out, buried him. 7 And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what had happened, came in. 8 And Peter said to her: Tell me, woman, whether you sold the land for so much? And she said: Yea, for so much. 9 And Peter said unto her: Why have you agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? Behold the feet of them who have buried thy husband are at the door, and they shall carry thee out. 10 Immediately she fell down before his feet, and gave up the ghost. And the young men coming in, found her dead: and carried her out, and buried her by her husband.
11 And there came great fear upon the whole church, and upon all that heard these things. 12 And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people. And they were all with one accord in Solomon’s porch. 13 But of the rest no man durst join himself unto them; but the people magnified them. 14 And the multitude of men and women who believed in the Lord, was more increased: 15 Insomuch that they brought forth the sick into the streets, and laid them on beds and couches, that when Peter came, his shadow at the least, might overshadow any of them, and they might be delivered from their infirmities.
16 And there came also together to Jerusalem a multitude out of the neighbouring cities, bringing sick persons, and such as were troubled with unclean spirits; who were all healed. 17 Then the high priest rising up, and all they that were with him, (which is the heresy of the Sadducees,) were filled with envy. 18 And they laid hands on the apostles, and put them in the common prison. 19 But an angel of the Lord by night opening the doors of the prison, and leading them out, said: 20 Go, and standing speak in the temple to the people all the words of this life.
21 Who having heard this, early in the morning, entered into the temple, and taught. And the high priest coming, and they that were with him, called together the council, and all the ancients of the children of Israel; and they sent to the prison to have them brought. 22 But when the ministers came, and opening the prison, found them not there, they returned and told, 23 Saying: The prison indeed we found shut with all diligence, and the keepers standing before the doors; but opening it, we found no man within. 24 Now when the officer of the temple and the chief priests heard these words, they were in doubt concerning them, what would come to pass. 25 But one came and told them: Behold, the men whom you put in prison are in the temple standing, and teaching the people.
26 Then went the officer with the ministers, and brought them without violence; for they feared the people, lest they should be stoned. 27 And when they had brought them, they set them before the council. And the high priest asked them, 28 Saying: Commanding we commanded you, that you should not teach in this name; and behold, you have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and you have a mind to bring the blood of this man upon us. 29 But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men. 30 The God of our fathers hath raised up Jesus, whom you put to death, hanging him upon a tree.
31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand, to be Prince and Saviour, to give repentance to Israel, and remission of sins. 32 And we are witnesses of these things and the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to all that obey him. 33 When they had heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they thought to put them to death. 34 But one in the council rising up, a Pharisee, named Gamaliel, a doctor of the law, respected by all the people, commanded the men to be put forth a little while. 35 And he said to them: Ye men of Israel, take heed to yourselves what you intend to do, as touching these men.
36 For before these days rose up Theodas, affirming himself to be somebody, to whom a number of men, about four hundred, joined themselves: who was slain; and all that believed him were scattered, and brought to nothing. 37 After this man, rose up Judas of Galilee, in the days of the enrolling, and drew away the people after him: he also perished; and all, even as many as consented to him, were dispersed. 38 And now, therefore, I say to you, refrain from these men, and let them alone; for if this council or this work be of men, it will come to nought; 39 But if it be of God, you cannot overthrow it, lest perhaps you be found even to fight against God. And they consented to him. 40 And calling in the apostles, after they had scourged them, they charged them that they should not speak at all in the name of Jesus; and they dismissed them.
41 And they indeed went from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were accounted worthy to suffer reproach for the name of Jesus. 42 And every day they ceased not in the temple, and from house to house, to teach and preach Christ Jesus.
Chapter 6
1 And in those days, the number of the disciples increasing, there arose a murmuring of the Greeks against the Hebrews, for that their widows were neglected in the daily ministration. 2 Then the twelve calling together the multitude of the disciples, said: It is not reason that we should leave the word of God, and serve tables. 3 Wherefore, brethren, look ye out among you seven men of good reputation, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business. 4 But we will give ourselves continually to prayer, and to the ministry of the word. 5 And the saying was liked by all the multitude. And they chose Stephen, a man full of faith, and of the Holy Ghost, and Philip, and Prochorus, and Nicanor, and Timon, and Parmenas, and Nicolas, a proselyte of Antioch.
[1] “Greeks”: So they called the Jews that were born and brought up in Greece.
6 These they set before the apostles; and they praying, imposed hands upon them. 7 And the word of the Lord increased; and the number of the disciples was multiplied in Jerusalem exceedingly: a great multitude also of the priests obeyed the faith.
In Acts 5:38-42
Here it is said:” 38 And now, therefore, I say to you, refrain from these men, and let them alone; for if this council or this work be of men, it will come to nought; 39 But if it be of God, you cannot overthrow it, lest perhaps you be found even to fight against God. And they consented to him. 40 And calling in the apostles, after they had scourged them, they charged them that they should not speak at all in the name of Jesus; and they dismissed them.
41 And they indeed went from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were accounted worthy to suffer reproach for the name of Jesus. 42 And every day they ceased not in the temple, and from house to house, to teach and preach Christ Jesus.”
That is why I mentioned the fact that the Church has been around for practically two millennia is all about. “ 39 But if it be of God, you cannot overthrow it, lest perhaps you be found even to fight against God. And they consented to him. “
But the Church is of God and was not destroyed for almost 2000 years (and is not destroyed now but going through a crisis as it has done many times in the past, as with the Arian heresy, the orthodox schism, the protestant reformation etc.. That any institution survive for more than 1000 years (the original Roman Empire only lasted about that long before being co-opted as the Holy Roman Empire) is exceptional by any human measure. And in chapter 6 verse 7 it says a “great multitude of priests obeyed the faith.” It does not say who were formally priests. Also in several places in Hebrews it speaks of the priesthood. If Christ had meant to be the only priest St. Paul would not have used the word priesthood in Hebrews or Acts. Also, Acts would not have mention the bishopric in regard to Matthias and Judas referencing the prophecy in the Old Testament (see Acts chapter 1). If Christ had meant to eliminate the priesthood like he made a married man thinking about a woman, in a lewd way a sin, he would have specified in some way similar to: from now on there will only be one priest, I, the high priest, which he did not do and neither did he imply. Now, I am not denying that we, as the people of God, do not have some priest type duties from 1 Peter 2:9 “But you are a chosen generation, a kingly priesthood, a holy nation, a purchased people: that you may declare his virtues, who hath called you out of darkness” but as you pointed out in Ephesians 4:11 there are specialties and the most special are apostles (where the bishops of today are decedent from) and priests both of whose unique duties are the Eucharist, Confession and the appointing of new bishops and priests.
To clarify, from my point of view, there are no real sects (as in Catholic Christians who believe dogma differently) they may have different rites with regard to the Holy Sacrifice of the mass but, something we have to get fixed as when we once had 2 popes, certain heretics like Arius and his followers, in the 4th century, who said Christ was not God, is the fact that they are at the highest levels of the church, having been infiltrated by Masons, I think, trying to say dogmas can change and actively trying to teach that they have changed due to modern times (this is the essence of the modernist heresy, that basically God is immanent as opposed to transcendent, transcendent meaning outside the effects of our created universe, unaffected by other sentient beings – humans and history, the Unchanging God, Hebrews 13:8-9). The thing that needs to be fixed is the riff between novus ordo Catholics and so-called traditional Catholics. If you go back to 1962 and before all the way back to Jesus Christ, dogma has been uniform, and if you like I can lend you catechisms back to the 1800s until 1962 that show exactly the same dogma if you would like to try and analyze them. Now some things are clarified and some things always believed by most Catholics have been verified as true with the pope speaking ex-cathedra but I think only 1 or two dogmas have been verified this way in the last 200 years, one being the immaculate conception (that is Mary as the mother of Almighty God was given the special privilege of being born without original sin and was never one of the Children of Wrath. She was the second Eve, and like Eve, as the mother of the savior, and like the savior, born without the stain of original sin and in her lifetime never committed a sin and probably the reason she is mentioned so rarely in the Gospel. She was the most exceptional woman, indeed human (since Jesus Christ in the mystery of the Incarnation, is truly God and truly man), ever born in that she was totally rational and predictable in every situation – she would do the will of God. In this way both men and women have a perfect example to follow – females Mary and Males Jesus)
Finally, if you say the churches position is wrong, explain specifically why, and I will again try to defend it, I’m unfortunately not saying that what the church champions is the only explanation, and this may sound conceited, but it is the correct explanation. Now there are some things which are ambiguous in the bible and where that is the case, in the faith we have latitude, but once the pope definitively speaks on matters of faith and dogma, Catholics need to accept it as a matter of faith. The problem is there can only be one truth, an apple cannot be both in the refrigerator and not in the refrigerator (try saying that to even a child to get confused looks) by the logical law of non-contradiction. One must be correct and that’s where the problem lies in our world. There are only 2 genders the XX chromosome gender and the XY chromosome gender (Genesis 1:27), on that in the Bible there is no ambiguity, yet secular people try to say there is, in fact.
You may or may not agree with any of this but Believe it or not my point is not to be right as you can see about most other things we argue about. My point is for you to hopefully one day, again, see the Truth of the Catholic religion and save your soul. Unlike what some wish to believe, the true God wishes to be worshiped through a religion, the true religion, the Almighty deserves nothing less and wants nothing less since it is His due for creating us from nothing. He does want a personal relationship but not just that, He also requires worship/adoration. In the Trinity, which Christ is the Son, also consisting of the Father and the Holy Ghost together as the planners and builders of all things, require worship. In choosing the true religion, you choose Christ. The least educated among us understand the concept of loyalty, a virtue even the most sophisticated is required to have toward God. With truthful reasonable arguments my mind can be changed about many things, but they must be reasonable based on truth. I believe the Catholic Church is based on Truth – Jesus Christ.
Note: this is not the original conversation, though this is most of it. I revised it to change names for anonymity, make it clearer, correct some spelling/grammatical mistakes and in some places added cites from the bible which were not in the original.
Traditional Thomistic Catholic 